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#1 2018-01-28 04:01:26

Influenza
League Streamer
Registered: 2013-06-02
Posts: 17

sT A and B

They are sharing players between their teams, i.e. sT B players play on st A, is that allowed?

roster links:
http://www.rts-league.org/leagues/aoc/c … php?ID=268
http://www.rts-league.org/leagues/aoc/c … php?ID=263

These 2 sT A matches have sT B player in it:
http://www.voobly.com/match/view/17134570
http://www.voobly.com/match/view/17134424

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#2 2018-01-28 14:18:58

Forever
AoR Clan Operator NHN
Registered: 2016-09-21
Posts: 410

Re: sT A and B

Oh my god 😓

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#3 2018-01-30 01:51:22

Black Adder
League Administrator
From: Praha, Czech Republic
Registered: 2007-11-15
Posts: 7073

Re: sT A and B

Yeah that is not good, we're looking into it, thanks for the post.


[nex]Black__Adder (@BlackAdderPlays)

"When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized I was talking to myself." Peter O'Toole
"The true measure of a hero is when a man lays down his life with the knowledge that those he saves... will never know." - The Outer Limits

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#4 2018-02-02 13:10:59

SeOul__
Member
Registered: 2017-11-02
Posts: 49

Re: sT A and B

After BuzZ didn't turn up to the first scheduled match, we scheduled again, and only ended up having 2 players there. We offered a 2v2 or a reschedule, but they didn't seem to want either, and then Mike came along and upped himself. Everyone seemed fine with him playing and since it was 3 a.m. for the other team and they clearly didn't want a 2v2 we gave them a 3v3 with Mike which is just gifting them a game. So we lost that game, and I was pissed off because I knew we weren't even allowed to play with him but whatever, he's the leader of the clan and it was his decision to play. Anyway I specced him after that, and LuongBong came and played g2.

I knew it was against the rules to have Mike play, but everyone just wanted to get the games done and it was 3 a.m. for BuzZ, so we went along with it, gave them g1 (as I expected to happen), which was basically a gift. Game 2 we probably should have changed to a 2v2 but instead we just changed Mike out for LuongBong so we could do another 3v3. Remember Mike and Luongbong are both literally 1600s and so it wasn't like we're borrowing top players... I'm shocked you even care enough to post this flu.

If anything we should have had admin win for BuzZ not turning up to the first scheduled match. But I'm not coming on here posting shit about other teams. I'm sorry we broke the rules, I'll make sure it won't happen again, but really you need to speak to Mike as he's the one who doesn't understand the rules. It's been a pain in the ass trying to manage sT A and I feel like I'm wasting my time with this clan. Only 3 other people in the roster (Seoul, Badboy, and Tom_Cruise) have played any of the games, or even made the slightest effort to play. I wasn't even meant to be scheduling or managing this team but here I am doing it anyway.

Actually I remember telling Sinken after g1 that neither Mike nor Luongbong were officially on the roster and he seemed fine with it.

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#5 2018-02-02 14:16:38

BuzZ_Sinken
Member
Registered: 2017-11-08
Posts: 56

Re: sT A and B

SeOul__ wrote:

After BuzZ didn't turn up to the first scheduled match, we scheduled again, and only ended up having 2 players there. We offered a 2v2 or a reschedule, but they didn't seem to want either, and then Mike came along and upped himself.

We would have accepted a 2v2 (even though it wasn't preferable), but Mike came just as we were about to start, so we went with it.

SeOul__ wrote:

Actually I remember telling Sinken after g1 that neither Mike nor Luongbong were officially on the roster and he seemed fine with it.

After game 1 he did mention it, and since neither player were anything close to an improvement to the team, I didn't really want to make a fuzz about it. It sucks that this had to happen, and BuzZ do in no way want any kind of AW, and we (mostly) knew and accepted what happened. Hopefully Black Adder will take this into consideration. I believe that the 3v3s we managed to play were the best solution avaliable.

Regards,
Sinken

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#6 2018-02-03 02:29:24

SeOul__
Member
Registered: 2017-11-02
Posts: 49

Re: sT A and B

The games were played in the spirit of the tournament and we compromised the strength of our lineup to ensure a 3v3 rather than pushing for a 2v2 or rescheduling a third time.

We completely agree that the decision we made at the time was breaking the rules, however we played on at a disadvantage in good sportsmanship. and we feel that 1-1 was a more than fair result for the match.

Thank you Sinken for your post.

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#7 2018-02-11 06:23:06

Black Adder
League Administrator
From: Praha, Czech Republic
Registered: 2007-11-15
Posts: 7073

Re: sT A and B

All right, we reviewed the difficult situation and the ruling is following:

Situations like these are always unfortunate as one would expect it's common sense these things shouldn't be happening - I mean who could think playing for two teams at once could ever be a good idea? When we make it very clear every season players shouldn't smurf and play for multiple teams or ideally even be members of multiple clans? You, SeOul, apparently understood it's not right, but deferred to your clan leader, which is nice for your clan's chain of command, but in that case you and your team have to accept the consequences for that clan leader making a mistake and breaking the rules, and quite fundamental and "common-sensy" ones at that - RTS League is all about players adhering to some reasonable "code of honour" when playing and playing fair.

Mike and LuongBong had no business playing for the A team after they already proclaimed themselves and played for the B team - that's the team they were on the Player-List for, and that's where their allegiance should have lied. That's why we require the teams' Player-Lists during sign-ups, to know who's playing where, to be able to properly seed them and maintain fair competition. A player can play for only 1 team in any season. It's for a very good reason, to keep the competition fair and without players randomly switching clans/teams as they see fit, disrupting the flow of the competition. That these players are not expert level bears little significance, as in the end, you even did get a victory through using them, therefore you gained an illegal advantage by using the players, you even said you basically tried avoiding a reschedule through their usage, ergo maybe also a possible penalty.

We however do recognise that this was not done exactly in the gravest of manners and resulted probably more from Mike's confusion than a real intent to harm anyone, and that will be reflected in the decision. The intent, even though it was mainly to play the games, was not entirely clean however, as mentioned above, therefore penalties still need to be real, as this is simply an unacceptable behaviour hurting the competition in a serious manner, no matter what the initial intent might have been. It might seem all around innocuous, but it really isn't, such practices have serious consequences, and can take on really nasty ends - this is not just a small Player-List mishap, this is a purposeful act. We also need to take into consideration that this was done by 'sT's clan leader and also Clan Operator in one person. The decision will include three parts - the team, the clan and the players.

1) 'sT|A team receives an Admin Loss for each game with an illegal player, therefore both.
2) 'sT clan as a whole receives a Warning putting them on probation for the rest of this and the whole next active season - further serious transgression of any team can result in immediate disqualification of the said team or the whole clan.
3) a) 'sT_Mike is banned for the remainder of the season and put on probation for the next active one. We also recommend not having him as a Clan Operator.
b) LuongBong is banned for the remainder of the season.


Some explanation on the exact steps: Games were played in a gravely wrong manner, therefore their result cannot stand, however disqualification of the team would be too harsh based on the circumstances of the transgression and will therefore not take place. A and B teams are always a risk exactly for reasons like here, which is why only well-organised clans should attempt them - the pull of the dark side is for obvious reasons stronger with them, therefore the whole clan needs to realise and make sure they follow the rules. They need to keep themselves in better check than so far. Both players don't have a clear allegiance this season anymore and did something really stupid, becoming risks to the competition, therefore to prevent any further problems they won't be allowed to play anymore this season. LuongBong probably just did as he was told, therefore only penalty for the rest of this season, but Mike is the clan leader, Clan Operator and actual perpetrator, therefore he deserves a personal penalty for the next season as well and we urge 'sT to reconsider his role with the League. We hope your internal processes and clan's interests will allow you to take the right measures without us having to make them explicit.

Next time trust your instincts SeOul and be cautious, you apparently have a better idea what to do than others - in the end, you're the Clan Operator, it's your team and your responsibility. Also try communicating with your opponents better, it seems you would get to play even without using the ineligible players - always better to ask than try to assume, ie attempt to read minds. After all, we're here for fun, so why not make things easier. Within rules smile

BuzZ, thanks for your showing of sportsmanship, appreciated - next time though please schedule responsibly the whole season, as this is also partly resulting from the scheduling problems it seems - in other words it could've been avoided.

A point to be made here about the Player-Lists - while we often do allow clans to use players who haven't been through the 7-day waiting period based on the opponent's approval on the spot, this practice has been established by preceding admin rulings and from that stemming common understanding that such players have a reason to play for the clan/team - being long-term members, no smurfs, not "out-of-the-league" in skill - and don't break other rules. Clans are of course still able to voice complaint about such behaviour if they don't agree with it, meaning no one can implicitly assume such request will be accepted. Where I'm aiming is that just because your opponent agrees to something, you cannot presume you can freely circumvent or even break the rules - only an admin can give an exception. We need to keep the competition fair to everyone.


[nex]Black__Adder (@BlackAdderPlays)

"When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized I was talking to myself." Peter O'Toole
"The true measure of a hero is when a man lays down his life with the knowledge that those he saves... will never know." - The Outer Limits

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#8 2018-02-12 02:22:52

sT_Mike
Member
Registered: 2017-04-10
Posts: 49
Website

Re: sT A and B

interesting...


Check out http://stclan.net

http://st.voobly.com/files/team/35771752/st_reform_logo.png
Leader, Founder, Webmaster

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#9 2018-02-12 05:25:48

Shark_Slayer
AoR Clan Operator Straya|B
From: Australia
Registered: 2016-10-11
Posts: 42
Website

Re: sT A and B

lol

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